I do not think that people can ignore what past champions (Sarul, Timmermann, Beyer) did. If you look at these results you list for bench (405,550,700) you can find in these the reasons for the athletes performance. For these athletes did not throw the same distances, Sarul 21.69m, Beyer 22.64m and Timmermann 23.06m.
The reason is not in the bench results, but how they got them.
Sarul was naturally very fast and trained to maximise this and threw OK. He threw OK distance 21.69m (one year over 21m). Short peak due to speed base peak. (one year)
Beyer was naturally very strong and trained to maximise this and threw better distance 22.64m (thirteen year over 21m). Long peak due to strength base peak.
Timmermann was naturally very fast, BUT trained for strength. So got the best of both worlds and threw farthest, 23.06m (medium size peak - five years) but in that peak, peaked the highest and had more 22m putts than anyone else in history by far.
You must learn from the mistakes of others (no matter how great they appear) if you wish to learn
Fascinating observation. There is video of Timmerman benching 500ish lbs with a pad but doing it quite fast.
I am interested in uses of the light shot, why are you doing this. I think that I use only heavy shots (12k,10k, 9k, 8k) and normal shot in training. I have even competed with 8 & 9k in a meeting. Heavy shot teaches how to move shot ball fast, its heavy and to throw far you must learn to move shot ball fast. Light shot I think just teaches thrower to move fast, but in comparison to him ball only moves same speed.
Fast ball is required? How does this work for you?
I know zero from Rotational Spin Putters. I speak only for Linear, is the different, I find it interesting. Sarul did it I know, but that was really because he was a wimp, he didnt like to trained too much and did many things to make life less stressful. I dont know of other putters from today, do they use them? The boy Nelson or Hunter, Blom and Godina. What do they do, they seem fine throwers indeed, are they using light shots in training? Please advise me, I find this most interesting.
Ulf here is quick to admit that he knows nothing about spin style shot put and is eager to learn. Apparently on The Ring they were talking about use of light shots, and Ulf does not understand why that is done, as in the East German system, it seems they found reasons why it's not beneficial and why heavy shots are. After this post, someone else told a story of his daughter getting beat by her rival who warmed up only with a boys' HS shot, then beating that rival soundly when the officials disallowed warming up with that shot in another meet. That must have been consistent, since that rival said "you know what this [12 lb shot] means? it means your girl's gonna get whooped today" and had been getting improved performance.
Randy Barnes was a very nice shot putter. I dont think he was a isw the best shot putter them all. He was a good competitor and threw a long way, but he was never really at the very top apart from in 1990. He still had defeats in this 1990 year and his 1996 year had many. The best era for putters was cut short, 1988-1992 should have been incredable, but sadly, Timmermann lost his support from the state and shattered knee cap, Gunthoer had very wrong back injury (after this time never penetrate right hip) and Barnes got caught. If these three had thrown for this period as before, record could be close to 24m now.
But this is all guess, I feel strong also for Mike Stulce, good putter in time, maybe had right head for competition too. I would say Barnes was good indeed, but place others better.
Randy had one year 1990 at top of his game. Todays putters are also good, I am sorry for old talk, I respect your opinion but I know this period better than you. Sorry.
I know nothing from todays America, please can you tell of these people Mr Caster. I have read your posts for some time and feel you are a man of knowledge. What do you know of todays men.
I do not think the coaches of the CCCP were better than that of the DDR. The CCCP had many more athletes to choose from and choose the wrong physical types, always to round and bulky to throw. Baryshnikov was about the best and he was not that good. But he did have his time against Udo Beyer so he had hard life. Kiselyov won the Olympic games but this is a joke, he never deserve that title but that is another storey. The best putter from CCCP is close to being Bagash, a very sound technique and good throw.
CCCP had many more people to choose and failed to match DDR. CCCP only have best in Hammer Throw. In shot is DDR, in discus id DDR in Javelin is DDR.
CCCP has many people like USA
CCCP is Soviets, and DDR is East Germany. Beyer says here that the Soviets picked big, bulky, superheavyweight weightlifter-type athletes for the shot put. Maybe in the 1940's they would have been best, but Anatoliy Bondarchuk (Soviet hammer, discus, shot put coach) mentioned two of the strongest weightlifters in history who had great clean, snatch, and even the press could only throw 14-16m.
Not all things in DDR or CCCP good for throwing. In these places everything was controlled, no individuals of special needs. Brian Oldfield would not have been a thrower in DDR or CCCP, or John Powell. Wilkins no also and certainly not Deal. These are your great USA throwers, so the DDR CCCP system had as many problems as yours system.
USA is good too. You have much to learn from yourself. I think USA coaches and DDR coaches as a team would produce the very best.
I like his attitude in that he's willing to share information and team up.
The difference in research I dont know of this at all. In means of training the CCCP putter trained in the old style strength set like an old style weightlifter with press. They had very strong and round throwers. High power but no looseness in the middle lots of overhead lifting and squatting and cleaning. Smirnov had 230k clean and jerk.
DDR putters trained to throw shot not to lift weights. CCCP putters nearly all had bad technique and style Kiselyov, Smirnov Gravyushin all poor style.
Only Buder and Beyer had poor style from DDR. Young Beyer had good style even very good. But most good style. Smirnov was very good in strength and power. 21m with 8.5k.
All CCCP putters look the same. Under old CCCP system Bagash would have thrown 22m, Beleonog is unusual, more from Timmermann style. Klimenko very typical CCCP.
The difference came from about 1970, before this time things for shot and hammer in CCCP was the same. Rudenkov, Klim are from this time (180 clean, 170 bench, 250 squats). Then Bondarchuk was the transfere time, even early for sedykh was like this upto around 1976 Olympics then change. Much more throwing and less traditional lifting do not know why really, think research on sedykh from this time said 78m throw was harder than a 130k snatch, or the same, but he had only 110k so throwing replaced many times lifting.
Sedykh does not say he lifted any heavier weight best performances from days of 78m in 1976 (110 bench, 110 snatch, 230 squat and 155 clean) up until 86m in 1984 (115 snatch, 240 squat and 160 clean). Do not know more really. Great difference in DDR and CCCP hammer throwers was taking strength to a level. DDR hammer throwers much stronger in the gymnasium but not in the throw.
Haber (142.5 snatch, 300 squat) and Rodehau much (155 snatch and 330 squat). Both also have close to 80m with 8.25k for just 83m with 7.26k. Sedykh have 78m with 8.25k but 86m.
Running and Jumping tests performed every four, six or eights weeks depending on time of year. Standing long jump, three hops on left, three hops on right, 60m or 100m run. Also overhead shot and other games for recreation. Not much, not like the in the CCCP they did many jumps from boxes. In DDR mainly games and tests. My mistake I was under the feeling that we are talking about throwers not children.
Children should be allowed to find there strength and enjoy them in the DDR this was part basis of talent selection for schools. But once they are already training it is the weaknesses that must be eliminated to produce top results. For example Mr C J Hunter is a good thrower he is very strong also I think. If he continues to get stronger he may still throw another few cm. This is his strength however if he trains for his weakness mobility and speed he would in my opinion throw better.
But i stress again I have not knowledge of spin style and am just learning (with help from the ring). But if he was a glider this would be true.
What I mean is Drabik would be correct if an athlete at 13 years shows good shot putting then he doesnt need to high jump train. But at 18 if he is very strong and slow he needs to
work speed. I see your mail address is BGreen, are you Bill Green? I think I have seen you thrown were you not an american hammer thrower of about 80m?
Like said before, the Soviet shot putters were the rotund superheavyweight types. 21m with 8.5 kg shot is insane, don't care what drugs you're on. The German system was much more focused with the shot.
Timmerman refers to the difference being made starting at about 1970. Bondarchuk started to catch on to the special strength concept here; before his time, hammer throwers were like shot putters- Olympic lifter types. And now Sedykh stopped increasing his strength and focused more on throws, and without getting any stronger, his performance went up quite a bit. Apparently German hammer throwing was bad- they didn't get to the special strength concept and still trained like weightlifters, which is like what the Soviets did with shot put. The Germans threw "close to 80m" with 8.25k and 83m with 16 lb; Sedykh threw the same with 8.25 and farther with 16 lb.
He makes a good point about focusing on strength and weakness. In early development, tailoring to one's strength is best, but beyond that, you must focus on your weaknesses to succeed.
When the Soviets had the concept of special strength for hammer and succeeded, the Germans had special strength in the shot put. "DDR putters trained to throw shot not to lift weights."
I speak only for shot putt glide I dont know spin you must put your own knowldege to use.
Heavy shot for elite performer is a must.
Heavy shot for sub elite is a must.
Heavy shot for begineer is a must.
You must first establish basic technique then go ahead, only during use of heavy shot will you see how to move from basic to advance technique.
I speak of times and knowledge of drug athletes yes. But then I know that not all athletes took drugs and not all athletes now take drugs.
In my days on the athletes who threw far took drugs and I think is same now.
But drugs athletes does not make knowledge useless. Mr Smith I know is a well respected man in USA and gives much time to throwing.
His athlete I have seen, in DDR of 1980's she would throw 23m. In germany of today we have give who throw same Kleinert (who is young AND has NEVER TAKEN DRUGS) and is better than smith.
She has less talent than smith but she has only very poor technique, smith has very very very poor technique. Smioth could thorw 20.5m with better technique coaching or better motor skills I dont know which. But as I have only seen two USA gliders with any decent technique ever I think coaching is fault.
Drugs drugs drugs, without Drugs Slupianek would have thrown 21m. Without drugs Klienert will throw 21m in next 4 years.
Astrid will win in Sydney. We dont know spin but glide we do.
Mr Smith I find much interest in what you have to say. I have a number of points.
Do you judge the vaule of a glide on how much it adds to stand? That is wrong I think, best glide techniques of Gunthoer, Timmerman, Andrei all got gains of 1.5-1.0m. On actual best close to 1m.
Drugs in DDR stopped sept end 1988, so to be drug free you must be post 1974 birth. Kleinert is top, but young she will throw far, Beckel, Beyer and Kluge will also all throw 20m, all drug free, all former DDR BUT NOT FROM SYSTEM.
I have read ring for sometime, you are ring heavyweight Mr Smith, but closed to ideas.
I come to ring to learn rotational shot putt ideas and to pass on some things of interest.
What do you come to learn? Do you know all?
I dont wish to be unnice, but I feel you could coach german girls to 3m differential too, but only by giving 15-16m stand first.
The context is- he got responses from John Smith, who coached his wife, Connie Price-Smith who was one of the top American shot putters in the 1990s. Timmerman is saying here that Connie is very talented and is capable of throwing 20.5-21m, and she was an athlete on par with the East Germans- had she existed in the 1980s in East Germany, she would be the WR holder. Ulf makes some interesting comparisons on who would have thrown what- Slupianek throwing 21m clean, Kleinert throwing 21m clean if she improved her technique (only ended up going 20.20m). He also insists that John Smith is too closed-minded and has actually missed out some important things.
He is a very obvious advocate of heavy shots. I think it has been shown in multiple tests of other movements, such as throwing medicine balls (think I saw something like this by Sorinex, for instance)- that if you start with a heavier weight and then lighten it, you get more powerful than if you start with a lighter weight.
Another very interesting concept is measuring glide by standing throw/glide differential. I feel when seeing discussions on The Ring that this is commonly misunderstood due to some loopholes in logic. Here's how I see it:
All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Improving technique always increases glide gain, but not all glide gain increases mean better technique. The longer your stand, the shorter your glide gain will likely be. Someone with a 14m stand could get a 17m glide can have mechanically worse technique than someone with 20.5m stand, 22m glide. It's not the technique is worse, but the strength distribution may be different, and you start to approach your physical limits of speed. Also, you usually cannot compare glide gain numbers between people for those reasons. Finally, the most important thing is to throw FAR; you don't get brownie points for being efficient. So a 22m glide with 20.5m stand gets a gold medal, while 17/14 doesn't make it out of qualification. The 17/14 is mathematically more efficient, but this person is automatically going to lose glide gain just from getting stronger. Since it's about throwing far, you lose out by holding back your stand just to have a higher percentage gain.
In the end, improve YOUR differential with good technique, but do not get caught up comparing differential numbers.
I am not going to tell you Astrid took drugs but work out thye dates yourself.
As for Ms Smith stand 18-19m and game over, well you dont get the point.
When she stands 19m her gain to glide will be only 1-1.5m, but result in record for her and better consistent.
Yes Mr Smith you are getting something you should spend as much time standing as gliding and you must land from glide in stand position.
Look at some good throwers and see. Only real problem is conversion phase from pull to push this takes time.
Slupianek was no good in technique (22m stand) but Astrid yes.
I'm going to make a separate post about stand/glide differential.
I came to join the ring because a friend encouraged me. I wanted to learn rotational shot (as we struggle for this in Germany) a reason for this I think is our Discus style being so different.
I thinked I could repay this knowledge with a little information on linear throw.
I did not wish to insult I did not wish my mail address published Nand been known becaue of abuse my friend has receieved in past for mailing.
I apologise to all I have insulted, all I say in defense is my english is not good. You try mail in german and you also will seem insulting.
USA system has much to offer and very good things especially today in rotational world. In women no, in men yes and German system there isnt one, but we have good things too in women and little mens too.
I cam e to learn not insult. Learn from each other someone said need USA talent and DDR system not true, need a mix of DDR and US system.
DDR for glide, USA for spin.
Thank you for your time in discussion Mr Smith. I admire that you stick to your guns. I do still think your wife has very poor technique and I believe I could get her to stand 18-19m and and throw 20m+, but we will never know. I do know I have helped women do this and will help more.
Good luck in the future. I watch your wife in sydney and see her left side dissapear or her shot come of line and miss the medal she could easily get.
I wish you well.
I have made two new friends on the ring who will help me with rotational knowledge and in exchange I will help with knowledge from system that produced some of the finest linear throwers, discus throwers and women in world. In US I dont know anyone who knows our old system, you have read a book and look with your eyes but you MUST UNDERSTAND BOOK IS LIES and your eyes only seen was stasi wanted.
Nevrmind, thank Mr Carr for help and the ring. I hope I have interesred more people than insultant with bad languaue. Good luck, throw far and loud as JD says.
I did for a while
What better source to find out about the system than from within? For those who don't know, Stasi is the German secret police agency, and they held tight control over information. As he says, "book is lies". He wanted to post anonymously for reasons to be explained in a later post.
Once again, he seems keen to share and learn.
I must make one post more to make a more safe exit from the ring. I have been reading more from the ring since I leave.
Due to bad languaue I am using it is clear that people have wrong idea as to why I leave.
I leave for two reasons. One I can not get my languaue good enough to argue with people. Mr Smith is not to blame for my departure for anything he has did. He is not to blame for me to go. Only in that I can not argue with him because I am not able to make point in languaue.
Second reason is why I was unknown on the ring. I am a shotputter in my heart but an just a name to people. I understand this. As I recently tried to explain to a new good friend I find thing bad in talking for shotputt. I am treated like either god or devil and am not either. I threw shot I study shot I learn shot I lived shot. I am the shotputter or atleast I was.
Seeing your effort at my tongue makes me see how stupid I must appear in english.
For me to learn new from you I must be just an equal not god who is always right or devil who is always wrong. To do this I must be unknown. I am equal to all and better or worse than no one but I am not treated as such. It is most hard for me to lose such opportunity for new knowledge and friends. But I can not even get my message on heavy shot and standing throws to you in success. I try one more time for leaving you without thinking I am stupid.
In DDR we tried for system to produce good throwers from small number of people in a long line for many years. This we did and then talent got hurted many times. This was from gliding. So in effort to maximise distnace we look to stand as important part. In this we use our heavy shot for many throws and also from glide. In glide heavy shot gives you range range range. You must have range to throw. Light shot loose range. In Brenner glider he had big gain from stand I think I see around 19m from him. But he did gain 3m for glide yes. This was because he stand style was limited only small putt only small range which he did for purpose. But he did have power to throw 21-21.5m stand if stand done from proper style. But not done for his coach reason I think. A reason I do not understand. We used to train this way in DDR in long time back. But problem occurred. To have poor stand ment must glide many times. Many times glide broke the athlete. Sad good bye to many hurt athlete. So changed this to new way. In DDR we did not have enough talent to break many athlete like USA.
I hope I have succeeded in trying to help on this point of interest. I do wish you all well and felt some proudness in some posts to ring.
I must leave the ring to return to normal balance I will still read but no more post.
"God or devil"- in staying anonymous, he wants to put himself on equal footing with others, such that they learn because what he says is good, not because of his stature of a thrower, or to disregard him due to being East German. Actually I think this is a good policy. There are no perceived know-it-alls waltzing around having the final say in everything; it should be ego-less discussion where everyone is open to learn as well as teach, and back up teaching with good reasoning rather than credentials. Good reasoning and turning it into results usually leads to credentials anyway, but credentials aren't always founded on sound reasoning.
A point of contention I've always had is discussing standing throws. Beyer threw 21.94 or something from a competition-legal stand; does that mean Americans doing 16-18m are that much weaker, or because they didn't focus on their stand the same way? I think it's more the latter than the former; if all the current throwers (spinners and gliders alike) and all the 1980s East Germans worked on nothing but stands for a couple years, then there'd be drugged athletes throwing 21-21.5m and "clean" athletes throwing 19-21m I think. Among the best, there wouldn't be that much a difference.
A surprising (to me) concept he describes is doing standing throws. He says that in East Germany, they didn't have that much of a talent pool compared to the USSR or USA. Apparently, if you practice the glide enough that your stand is weaker than if you focused on it, you are doing a lot of full glides. I had no idea, but doing a lot of full glides in practice increases the risk of injury! Therefore, they practice with a lot of standing throws, since the stand is a vital part of the glide and has a good carryover but also has less risk of injury, that's what I picked up. This is why the East Germans' stands were so huge, not necessarily they were THAT much better of athletes.
As Ulf said, he felt John Brenner would have done low 21m range in the stand in the German system instead of 19m. I don't know the details of Brenner's injury, but I think it was implied that by focusing on the glide over the spin, perhaps that did him in.
I read with interest the views of many posters. Hunter has tested positive. Let him fight his case. If he gets off then good luck, if he does not then no more compete.
No person knows if anyone other person is on drugs or off drugs. How much drugs when?
My rival Randy Barnes was caught twice for taking drugs. But he argues against this. I am not Randy's mother, I do not know what he did. No one knows except Randy. No one for sure. Unless you see with own eyes you are not 100% sure. All I know for sure for Randy Barnes is he was Olympic Champion and is World Record Holder. More that that you dont know.
What I mean for use Randy as example is he was caught, but could be innocent.
Udo, me, Gunthoer, Andrei, Brenner, Stulce, Smirnov, Godina, Nelson, Baryshnikov, Feuerbach, all these, we were not caught, but could all be guilty.
YOU DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING to who took what. YOU ARE GUESSING. Many people would not even know what there wife was doing.
Let Hunter fight his case. Leave the man to fight for himself. If he proves guilty then fine. But leave to to be. Even if he is proved guilty then maybe he is not.
ALWAYS REMEMBER, Barnes was caught, I was not, do you think we are much so different? Well Hunter is caught, Nelson, Godina, Bloom are not (yet), but they are not so different.
All could be guilty, all could be innocent, YOU JUST DONT KNOW, I dont know, all I know for 100% in me. All you know for 100% is you.
Dont base for whole outlook on training and coaching on what you assume, only work with what you know.
I have confidence in the ability of a doctor/scientist/nurse to conduct a test in hospital/surgery and without any human administrationing errors pass back to correct result from this test and take the proper action. I did not wish to worry you my friend, I hope you take courage from Englander Olympian Radgrave who is sick as you.
What I dont have confidence in the the system used in sports testing, which is not as such written above.
Tests in toilet, meeting room, taken by monkey, poor supervisorion, people with to much to gain from positives can influence tests. IAAF, IOC, Meet Promoters, Major Sponsors, Televison Contractors all can influence tests. This I know, I have witnessed, I have seen and in this very season not by gone times.
I have no clue as to Hunters guilt or incense, I wish him luck and wish the truth to be known. What his personal truth is, I dont know. All I wish to say is that ONLY HE WILL know, even AFTER the test. ONLY HE will really know.
This answer is not what you want. My answer is that everybodies has a different maximum throw without drugs.
I can not answer the question what is the maximum throw, let aside for answer what is maximum without drugs, with drugs on a tuesday or a wednesday.
Drugs are play no part for some throwers of very far distances, they play small part to others and huge part to others.
Some types of thrower need drugs more than others, they also have more benefit for the less mentally or physically talented than for a real gifted.
I personally believe the maximum an athlete can throw is set by themselves, there desire, there talent, belief, training methods, injury recovery many factors.
Sorry to dissapoint, mayhave this statement is more to answer your needs. Do I believe that (for example) an athlete could set a world record without using drugs in the year 2000?
Yes. I do. Do I think anyone will? No. I dont.
There is plenty of prize money avaliable in throwing. Especially in grand prix years. Obviously the superstars like Astrid and Lars get the most.
Further the done. Franka she has $15,000-20,000 per meet this year.
What of USA Throwers. Those who dont make games team should come to europe and compete, pick up finances, anyone who can throw 20m/65ft regular can earn much prizes in Europe. Why dont you USA men come to do this? Is it because you will get many drug tests? I dont understand why you dont come and collect money? Three to six weeks for may thousnads even at this level? Why not come?
Many different ways to start glide. Some good and others not so good. Some for for only a few.
General principle is to have maximum drive from both legs. But left leg must reach full extension first and then right leg extends.
Me I try to get complete extension on left before right move at all. To this reason is why I had my unusual start on two toes. I have seen many people copy this but not so many understand why to do this.
Shoulders must start lower than hips and still be lower than hips when left is extended. Try glide hops and straight left glide drills.
Leo and Bear, I presume, are posters to whose questions Ulf is responding to. Glad to hear it from Ulf himself that some people are so talented that taking drugs does nothing for them, and that for some, there's a much greater benefit.
My idea is that you do need to look at top throw techniques. But remember technique can be good from some worser throwers too. You dont need to be great distance to be great technique.
Remember you must also understand what is they are trying to do and why, not just what you sees.
My personal favourites:
Shot Putt Glide: Past - Geis (DDR)
Present - Tigas (Greece) Naire (Fra)
(Sorry, spin I dont know)
Discus: Past - Schmidt (DDR) Silvester (USA)
Present - Fandino (Italy)
Javelin - Past: Hohn (DDR) Present Zelezny (TCH)
Only my personal choices for shot and discus. Javelin opinion from Uwe (104m).
"You don't need to be throwing great distances to have great technique" (paraphrased)- very true.